35 MPG: Why Wait Until 2020?

104 thoughts on “35 MPG: Why Wait Until 2020?”

1. With all of these diesel-based autos getting great MPG, why not temporarily delay emissions requirements? This would be a help to: car owners (less gas money to spent), US auto workers (more US-built cars being bought), and to the US economy (US jobs kept instead of being lost to other countries).

2. @Chris – spot on … imagine the day when 50% of the cars that Chrysler sells in the USA are diesel-powered … imagine them running on domestically sourced B20 biodiesel.

   It’s not far fetched, not in the least. Someone needs to wake up the politicians, in order for them to allow it to happen.

   The answer isn’t corn-based ethanol. It’s biodiesel … we need the diesel cars, suvs, and trucks that can run it.

3. The latest Scientific American (Mar 08) reported that a five-year study on switchgrass showed that it was a much better source of ethanol than corn. Switchgrass yielded 540 percent more energy than was used to produce it, compared to 25% for corn-based ethanol.

4. I may be mistaken, but I was led to understand one of the reasons diesels are farther out on the horizon was not just due to stricter federal regulations for what comes out of the tailpipe, but stricter new fuel formulations, particularly a much lower sulfur content than in Europe.

   I was told that a good part of the delay wasn’t so much trying to meet the standards at smog check centers, but to make diesel engines work better with the new fuel formulations.

   I don’t remember where I heard it, though, so please debunk this if I’m mistaken.

5. Guess we are the outsourced country on this one 😉

   Seriously, if this country started allowing these cars to be sold tomorrow I would bet that layoffs would soon follow for the US workers so that the manufacturer could tap cheaper labor in other countries and then sell back to Americans at even higher prices…just seems to be the way our companies treat their own these days…

   Any ideas on how much pollution these diesels cause compared to the standard car? Just curious. I guess I could google that huh..

   peace all..

6. @ Bob – Yep! Switchgrass looks to be far more practical than corn as an ethanol feedstock, but it’s still a ways off. Keep in mind that flexfuel cars running ethanol might only get 80% of the mileage with high ethanol blends that they get with gasoline.

   @ Greg – There’s lots of haze spinning around the issue, no doubt … but think about this … all the diesels that are currently on the road here in America are now running that low-sulfur fuel.

   @ Mike – With the historic weakness in the US dollar, the cars *have* to be built here. Importing engines is one thing … but entire cars? That needs to be slashed to a minimum.

   I’d suspect that the exported cars are roughly equivalent to the 2006 US specs. Jeep used the VM Motari 2.8 in the 2005-2006 Liberty CRD. VW sold Jetta diesels here through 2006 and will pick things up again with the 2009 model year, after a manufacturing delay. The Mercedes V6 is already clean … and a sweet engine it is … a perfect fit for the Grand Cherokee.

7. I was actively looking for an alternative fuel vehicle and selected the Grand Cherokee Diesel. I’ve had it for three months now and am burning B20 biodiesel from Blue Sun Biodiesel.

   Love the car. The cost of diesel is a bit of an issue, but I hardly drive so that helps.

   Living in Colorado, I wanted a car that would be safe for my family and be good in the snow. This Grand Cherokee Diesel is all of them.

8. Just for curiosity’s sake… Are the mileage figures shown for the American gallon? It’s smaller than the Imperial gallon. Thus mileage might be lower.

   And why does diesel cost more than gasoline? Doesn’t diesel fuel require less refinement?

9. 35 mpg? That’s really not that great.
   Its a nice stride and it would be nice nice to have it, but wake me up when its at least 60 mpg.

10. Trouble is our short sided politicians who get most of their information from lobby groups make poor decisions. Diesel has always produced more BTU’s then gasoline and provides much more torque which Americans love. Diesel is a great engine for people who love big vehicles. Unfortunately even GM touts ethanol and it’s E85 compatible vehicles even though E85 reduces fuel mileage rather then increases?? Go figure. People as a truck driver and as a person who reads that in Europe diesel rules! Diesel has been cleaned up, the engines are dramatically improved. The EPA is not helping by supporting less efficient, lower BTU fuels to power our vehicles.

11. Check out the new Mini Cooper D. 68 MPG. I don’t know of a car yet except for the old 2000lb Honda CRX that even came close.

12. The answer is not to “wake up” politicians. They’re making these bad decisions with their eyes wide open, because they’re getting kickbacks (euphemism for bribery) to vote the way that they are voting.

    The answer is for the public to start electing only true constitutionalists and scrutinizing election systems more closely–most of them are rigged now.

13. Isn’t it true that if you remove the emissions equipment from your gasoline burning vehicle now, your gas mileage and performance from the car will increase.

    Diesel has typically been a better gas-mileage alternative, except their are fewer options. In CA, that’s BP and maybe truck stops.

    Finally, If I need to spend $7/gallon on diesel, instead of the $3.50 – $4/gal for gasoline, what’s the savings? I already get 20+mpg on my vehicle. The added MPG doesn’t cover the convience or the cost.

14. Wait, so a couple of quick questions:
    First, who are buying these dirty emission low mpg cars? Europe? Don’t they have stricter emissions standards than the US?
    Second, what are these higher emissions and why were they originally regulated? I’m not really interested in rolling back regulations that keep high levels of mercury or toxic levels of sulfur out of the air.
    Third, why can Chevy build a 50mpg car, yet still not manage its emissions requirements? Rolling back emissions requirements for a year or two is fine, initially, but the auto industry has a history of acting like -. How does a roll-back today not become permanent tomorrow simply because Chevy refuses to invest in better emissions controls? Again, I’d rather not drive to work through acid rain in my 50mpg car just because it seemed like a good idea to cut emissions standards back when gas was $110 / barrel.

    Finally, wtf! Detriot lobbies for decades to prop up their dying industry and — environmentalists who’ve been pushing for this sort of improvement. Toyota produces many of its cars in the US with American employees, and I can get a good hybrid car right now that gives me mpg in the 40s. Why shouldn’t I just buy Japanese and tell Chevy/Ford to —?

15. I’ve been actively looking for diesel-powered cars for the past year. I’d love to look at a Grand Cherokee Diesel, but not a single dealership in my area even has one in stock. I’ve said for years if Jeep would offer the Wrangler CRD in the US, I’d be the first guy in line.

    At this point I’m waiting for the new Audi diesels to be available in a year or so, since those will be 50-state legal and Audi really wants to push sales of those cars, which I think is great.

16. i recently visited Ireland and picked up an auto magazine at a bank there, It listed all the models on sale in Ireland and it pretty much mirrors the car market in Europe.
    Apart from the unreal price of cars I did notice all the American cars on sale in Europe with diesel options. I also notices all the Japanese and Korean brands have similar options, Hyundai Tuscon Diesel etc.

    Wake up America Kennedy put man on the moon Bush & co said we are going to Mars (Hopefully he will be on the inaugural flight with a one way ticket) the next regime must open up the market to fuel efficiency.

    Whilst I am not a fan of American cars I would hope since they are made here the US Diesels would be leaders in the market.

    End of rant….

17. But here is a point / question….

    VW and MB already sell alot of diesel cars here and have been doing so for 25+ years I think. And if many of these cars use VW & MB Diesel motors, then whats the hang up when putting them in an “American” car.

    If the motor meets regulations when its in a VW, why would the same motor not meet regulations when in a Caravan?

    This is all a bunch of BS, someone or some group is trying to kill the US economy, start a recession, cause panic and rioting when gas is 8$ a gallon and people cant afford to work. So then martial law can be declared and then the government will get complete control and the US will never go back to how it once was.

    If our government actually cared they would be putting tons of money into alternative fuel research, funding new refineries, paying farmers to use un-used land for fuel crops. They are doing nothing but making sure everything stays the same, no matter how much it hurts everyone.

18. Yeah but the funny thing is none of these cars sell in any decent numbers in Europe. Why? They suck. Putting a different engine in a turd … well you know the rest.

    Anyway – deisel? really? Don’t get me started! Do any of you read anything about anything before you jump on bandwagons that are going right over a cliff? I didn’t think so. Oh and just to be clear – Hillary is actually a MONSTER.

19. Ford has been building Euro diesels for a while. Here are the newest with 55MPG.
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4221669.html

    Chevy is a bit behind but they also have Euro diesels.
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/chevrolet_europ.html

    The new fuel is NOT the problem. Old diesels are still running in the US with the new low sulfer fuel. The O-rings and seals in the fuel system have to be replaced with viton but thats not hard to do.

    The problem is the EPA, the big three and the oil companies. Ford had a partner with BMW in 1984 selling a 2.4L BMW diesel in Lincolns. The US public did not catch on but those who did are still driving them today with 2 to 300000 mi on them. They dropped the project in 85 due to poor sales(4200 units total). BMW started selling the 2.4L in the 524TD in 85 and 86. They were shut down in the US by the EPA but kept using that same engine in Europe well into the 90’s Mileage was 30 to 50MPG. BMW’s newer diesels get close to 60MPG and have finally got the green light from the EPA to sell a few high priced diesels in the US next year.

    Big oil wants you to keep using gas because they can make more money if you get crappy mileage. The big three want you to use gas because you will buy new cars every few years because gas engines wear out fast. They pay Lawyers and Politicians to help their cause. Whats new?

20. @ Chris

    I own an 03 VW Turbo Diesel Jetta that gets 45 mpg but pay over $4.00 a gallon. Yah I pump once every 2.5 weeks but still pay alot. I almost break even after doing the math.

    I remember when diesel was $0.20 cheeper than unleaded. Now its $0.80 more. I want to know how and why the price jumped so much in the past 4 – 6 years.

21. Great article. Interesting to see things from an American perspective. here in the UK petrol and diesel are currently more than 1 pound ($2) per litre and we are always moaning about the fact that your fuel is so cheap. Also 35mpg is no big deal here. You can buy petrol cars that do more than 50mpg and diesels that do 65mpg here. But I imagine, given the demand for diesels in Europe, especially UK, and the favourable exchange rate, your US manufacturers make a bigger profit here on their diesel cars than they do in the USA.
    A Chrysler 300cc 3litre diesel is £27000(sterling) thats about 54000 US dollars. A Dodge 2l diesel Calibre (46mpg) starts at over £14000(sterling) or 28000 USD. I bet that’s more than you would pay!

22. I was lucky enough to purchase one of the last diesel passat line that VW produced before the new emission standards. The 0-60 time is not the only thing to think about with these engines. Because of how it uses torque, these cars show incredible mid-ranged acceleration as well.

    Accelerating from 60-80 mph effortlessly while getting 35-40 MPG overall is why I love my car.

23. These are Dodge products … no one who loves cars, would own these disasters of engineering. In case you haven’t noticed, diesel is almost a buck a gallon more than regular gasoline.
    Having owned a Mercedes A class diesel while living in Europe, these (diesel) things are pathetic. They are forced upon the public in an effort at social engineering. The weathly won’t touch them. Enthusiasts laugh at them and … they still stink and clatter. That is unless you spend 50 to 75 thousand euro for a Mercedes. And at that price, if you can afford a Mercedes, you can afford the gas. Additionally I’ve driven a new 300 … what an awful car …. cheaply made, poor quality materials … reminds me of 1979 again ….YUK

24. It’s weird that the VW engine gets 49 mpg hway but only 29.8 mpg city. My 2001 VW Golf with a 1.9 diesel engine gets 49/42 mpg. High mpg diesel engines have been here for a while, but there are state regulations that only allow a small percentage of new cars sold to be diesel (in TX is 10%)

25. You won’t see these here until they can figure out a way to add tax to the biodiesel/diesel enough to compensate for the loss of revenue made by vehicals that get less mpg. When I say los of revenue, i don’t mean the oil companies either I mean the governement. Look at how much we are taxed per gallon and just do a rough estimate for say a million cars month/year, whatever. All that tax is supposed to pay for our aging highway infrastructure. Now cut that in half and even more if we ever get to 50-100MPG which is possible. If they allow it, look out for a higher sales tax or something to help pay for it.

26. Diesel fuel costs more than gasoline , on average gasoline is 18% cheaper than diesel. On the other side, diesel engine gets better mileage than gasoline engines, on average 25% better mileage than gasoline, thus, switching from gas to diesel wont benefit the American economy as it does any other country in the world. Abroad the diesel fuels is cheaper than gasoline, on average 8%. They get cheaper fuel and better mileage.

27. “Chrysler is not allowed to sell those cars domestically, due to recently tightened emissions regulations.”

    You haven’t addressed this at all in your article.
    Do these cars pollute too much? Is that why they can’t be sold here? What are these “emission regulations” and why don’t these cars meet them? Does Europe have different “emission regulations” that allow them to sell these?

    Personally, if they pollute a lot, I don’t care what their milage is, I’d rather have something that doesn’t burn any petroleum product at all. Certainly because of pollution but also just because I’m sick and damn tired of giving profits to the evil bastard oil companies.

28. is it me or is there something fundamentally wrong with this picture.

    those emissions requirements. god what would L.A. be with MORE diesel vehicles about.

    it doesn’t seem feasible or smart, for that matter, to revert back to older and still dirty fuel technologies.

29. Hell! The “bunk” part of this entire story is the corporate decision makig that is left out. I have a VW Golf diesel and it gets 45-50 mpg. It has the same engine listed here. (2.0 liter Volkswagen turbo-diesel inline four ) I bought it here in the US. Why can’t the American auto makers equip it with the same enviro-setup? Do the Germans have some secret emissions system that they won’t sell these companies. The American car companies just don’t want to make it available to us here!

30. This is dumb. Why would we comprimise our air quality for better emission? Do you want to have China levels of pollution?

31. Are those imperial miles or US Miles? Imperial miles are shorter and are easy to forget about.
    http://www.ecobeater.com

32. From the economic stimulus aspect, I don’t know how much a 35MPG diesel engine would help when diesel is markedly more expensive than gasoline as of late ($1+ more here in upstate NY).

33. I drive a two door Honda civic. It gets nearly 40 MPG. It already passes all emissions standards. It probably can’t hit 60 in less than 10 seconds, but I’ve never had a chance to try since almost 100% of my driving is done on residential streets. Why can’t american cars compete with this?

34. The reason we don’t sell them back to Americans like myself is because money is involved and they make more selling these POS’s instead. Plus it cost more fuel to drive these.. oil industry’s have a large influence on everything.. even the Gov.

35. Europe traditionally drives smaller cars with much higher MPG, do you really need such big cars in the States?

36. Given my wife is allergic to diesel exhaust – and that said allergy triggers major asthma attacks – call me less than enthusiastic that there’ll be more diesels on the road…

37. Here in Europe diesel is the fuel. Its not only cheaper per liter but also runs longer (better resell value), easier maintenance, does eat less both in city and at highways but its also very fast/powerful nowadays… Where I come from you usually have diesel if its over 2.0 liter engine… Better for enviroment as well. Its really weird to follow things in USA.

38. Newsflash…I bought a 35 mpg car in 1995, and am still driving it. Mazda protege with MANUAL TRANSMISSION. Wake up people. You can already buy them.

39. frankly, i’m not that impressed. my dad’s early 80’s Nissan wagon was that good. diesel pollution is particularly bad for people and they manufacturer can surely do better. I have no sympathy for them and am glad of the air pollution. if you want to look to fuel costs, don’t look to scarcity as the issue- try politics instead.

40. So… Is this just a plug for Chrysler (Dodge and Jeep are owned by Chrysler)? I own a 95 Honda Accord that gets 36 miles per gallon; and 87% of it was built here in the US. That’s well more than any Chrysler!

41. My ’98 Jetta TDI gets 43mpg, and I drive digital (you’ll get it if you think about it long enough). That’s a ’98… 43mpg… 200k on the odometer… 10-year-old technology still beats what we’re selling here now.

42. Kudos to the Chrylser PR team for putting this one together.

43. @ Eco – I did the conversion from Imperial to US … check footnote #1.

    @ Dan – Not a plug, just stating the facts that 99.8% of the population may have been unaware of.

    @Omar – Nice one, but no cigar. I spent days doing the research by combing through the European Chrysler websites and hounding the guys at Chrysler for the info to create this report. Maybe I’m old-fashioned, but I try to make a point of not regurging other folks stuff.

44. The California diesel emission standards to the point where the output of the tailpipe must be cleaner than the air (just about!). VW diesels, the first to meet CA’s standards the exhaust is CLEANER than the air you are breathing.

    So car makers want to meet standards in all 50 states before bringing in a car. Otherwise they cannot sell it in all states.

    I agree, the Golf TDI puts out amazing MPG results. On average 42 or 43. Compare that to gas cars.

    Diesel is the first line off in refining petro. After diesel (same as heating oil) you get to Aviation fuel and kerosene. Those two are only slightly different. In my old Mercedes manual it had it IN PRINT if you can’t find Diesel to use kerosene, then fill the tank up with #1 to re-lube the fuel lines.

    Honda makes a CR-V thats Diesel, it’s available everywhere else EXCEPT the US. It does not meet US standards.

45. The only way to wake up the politicians and get diesels in the U.S. is to tie it to money in their pockets. Putting more money in politicians pockets is the ONLY way to motivate them to do anything.

46. More diesels on roads? Do you want people dead from all this emissions?

47. LOL, diesel is going to be scarce a lot sooner than gasoline. It pollutes more and you can’t conceivably place it in the same category as gasoline vehicles.

    If not all, nearly all of all oil on Earth has been discovered. During the first 70 years, it was only the US that used it extensively and to a lesser extent Europe, this consumed some of all reserves , the next 20 years, more countries in the World started to use it (China, Russia, Japan, Korea, etc). And during the past 10 years it included Brazil, India, Mexico, Canada, Australia, South Africa, Turkey.

    The rate of World consumption far outweighs the capacity to replenish oil reserves. So prices will spike either way. We need a new kind of energy source.

    And being followers never allows you to win.

    Kudos to Chrysler and Dodge, though this is too little too late.

48. First, compliments on an excellent site with good presentation!

    For those new to comparing fuel economy between the US and UK, the US gallon is ~5/6ths of an Imperial gallon and miles are the same. So 60 mpg(Imperial) is 50 mpg(US).

    Regarding emissions, it appears that the big issue is NOx. If I understand correctly … EU Step IV standardards require that NOx be below 0.2 g/km while US standards require less than 0.027 g/km. That is why M/B and VW are using AdBlue (or what ever it is call) to achieve the US mandated NOx levels.

    Only GOD knows what the NOx output is from the over 6,500 pound diesel “light” vehicles sold in the US today since the EPA is not allowed to track them. That goes for their fuel economy also.

    CO2 emissions are interesting. In the EU they are pushing for below 130 g/km. There are about 90 models already rated below 120 g/km. From what I can estimate, the typical US light vehicle is probably above 250 g/km CO2 emissions.

    This site will give you a idea about what is available outside the US
    http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/

    Take a look at some of the diesel from Ford and GM/Opel/Vauxhall. One that you can compare here in the US is the Saturn Astra at 28 mpg(US) combined average to the Vauxkall diesel at about 47 mpg(US) [57 mpg(Imperial)].
    http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=20284

49. To: mpg-o-editor

    See if you can find a way to use this (edit if necessary):

    44 mpg – Would it make a difference?

    Reduced Domestic Oil Consumption: Some of its Snowballing Benefits

    Reducing domestic oil consumption will divert capital from paying for foreign oil imports to injecting those funds into the national economy, and will help reduce the strain on the global demand for oil. This is both an economic incentive as well as a strategic imperative for improving international relations. Focusing on the oil consumption of domestic light vehicles, the following will show some of the major potential benefits that are possible.

    IF the US could/would build and put on the road 20 to 30 million 44 mpg (or more) combined average vehicles per year for about 8 years and then scale production back to sustainable replacement levels over the following 5 years …

    as you read this keep in mind that by 2022 petro fuel may cost well above $4 per gallon.

    On average these high mpg vehicles would save the “average” owner about 700 gallons of fuel per years compared to the average light vehicle available in the US market for 2008. Use your own cost per gallon and see what that means to you and your family budget.

    It appears that this fuel cost savings at $4/gallon (assuming no increase in price), for the average owner, would pay for a $20,000 vehicle in about 7 years of use.

    There would be industrial expansion and jobs.

    These vehicles would, by their very nature, have very low CO2 emissions. And, as a result, would be much more compatible with world emission standards and therefore more easily exported. At present exchange rates, that is a potential opportunity for even more jobs further improving both employment and balance of trade.

    Automotive fuel consumption would be reduced by about 50% (or more) … putting money (up to about $3,000 per year @ $4/gallon … or more depending on the price of fuel) into the US consumers’ pocket to spend on “domestic” goods and services (including fuel efficient vehicles).

    The large reduction in fuel consumption could free up 40% of domestic refining capacity which, in turn, allows decommissioning of excess capacity (probably obsolete or “at risk” facilities).

    Money injected into the domestic economy generates not only potential for new profits but also new tax revenues to pay down National Debt, now approaching $9.5 TRILLION. At $4/gallon the injection potential is about $0.8 TRILLION PER YEAR at 44 mpg combined average. Leave it to the economists to figure out the annual rate of National Debt reduction for US.

    Oil imports would ultimately be reduced to near 0% … saving ALL of those EXPORTED $$$$ traditionally used to pay for imported oil … improving National Security by reducing or eliminating oil imports. Obviously balance of trade is improved further as a result.

    Petro-Fuel Price Driven Inflation would be reduced to a minimum. The oil speculators will “JUMP” out of the market as soon as this type of plan appears to have a chance.

    Ooooh … I almost forgot … burn half the fuel and get half the emissions … a cleaner environment.

    With everyone working at meaningful jobs, would there even be a mortgage/foreclosure crisis? Bear Stearns might not have gone under.

    With expanding employment … OUR young people may develop a stronger sense of hope for their futures because of the visible opportunities.

    There is more … but I think you get the idea.

    Bear Stearns is a problem but this maybe as big or even much bigger … the 2 ton gorilla under the SHAMROCK, so to speak.

    Has Congress, the President, the auto industry, or anyone even attempted a solution to recover the $0.8 TRILLION (at $4/gallon and 44 mpg) that is REMOVED from the US economy annually by high fuel consumption vehicles? It appears, in fact, they have not even acknowledged this loss to the economy and its’ origin publically. Possibly they have not even considered this “circular logic” and what it implies.

    You will have to draw your own conclusions and … take the actions you believe are appropriate.

50. Seriously… out of all of those models of cars, only two or three are even worth considering given Chryslers extremely low quality and innovation. Even if you are not a speed maven, a 12 second 0 – 60 time is not only bad, it’s downright DANGEROUS in some urban driving situations. Why lower standards to accept these vehicles? And you do realize that to meet US standards these foreign sourced engines will lose economy, right? Why aren’t we looking at, developing, funding, and even legally forcing hybrid and alternative power sourced vehicles instead of stringing along gas guzzlers at the behest of the oil companies and their supporters???